How do you know your sins are forgiven? catholic answers forum working4christ2 << working4christ2

un 19, '13, 11:04 pm

ltwin Regular Member   Join Date: November 9, 2009 Posts: 2,052 Religion: Pentecostal

Re: How do you know your sins are forgiven? Quote: Originally Posted by The GreyPilgrim How do you make this distinction when in the context Jesus wasn't speaking to His disciples as a whole but only to those twelve who were to be His Apostles and ministers of His authority? That is not established by the context. John 20 talks about the "disciples" were shut up in a house "for fear of the Jews." He breathed on them and said, "Receive the Holy Spirit." Gave them authority to remit and to retain. And in verse 24, we are told that Thomas was not even with them when the Lord appeared. So all of the apostles were not even present. Quote: Originally Posted by The GreyPilgrim Does this include the pastors or deacons? Yes, since pastors and deacons are part of the church. __________________ Oh that rugged cross My salvation Where Your love poured out over me Now my soul cries out Hallelujah Praise and honour unto Thee

#17   Jun 19, '13, 11:31 pm

The GreyPilgrim Regular Member   Join Date: January 18, 2008 Posts: 747 Religion: Catholic

Re: How do you know your sins are forgiven? Quote: Originally Posted by ltwin That is not established by the context. John 20 talks about the "disciples" were shut up in a house "for fear of the Jews." He breathed on them and said, "Receive the Holy Spirit." Gave them authority to remit and to retain. And in verse 24, we are told that Thomas was not even with them when the Lord appeared. So all of the apostles were not even present. Neither were these other disciples you assume. This takes place the day of the Resurrection. There was no mass of disciples, they all had abandoned him during His Passion. Chapter 21 continues because it says, "Jesus revealed Himself again..." and then proceeds to list the Apostles to whom He revealed Himself before in the upper room that Easter morning. Matthew 18:18, and in much of the Gospels there is always a distinction between the crouds who follow Jesus and His disciples otherwise called the "twelve". Your interpretation seems to stretch the meaning of the term beyond it's intended meaning so as to suit your theology. Quote: Originally Posted by ltwin Yes, since pastors and deacons are part of the church. Where in the Bible does it say that the congregation has the right to expel its deacons and pastors? I simply can't find it. And in Matthew again Jesus is speaking about the apostles, not the congregation. In fact throughout Paul's letters he commanded the churches to obey their pastors as if they were Paul himself speaking. It just doesn't seem to follow from the Bible. __________________ DCF forums "He can no longer have God for his Father, who has not the Church for his mother." Cyprian of Carthage, On the Unity of the Church, chpt 6.

#18   Jun 19, '13, 11:42 pm

ltwin Regular Member   Join Date: November 9, 2009 Posts: 2,052 Religion: Pentecostal

Re: How do you know your sins are forgiven? Quote: Originally Posted by The GreyPilgrim Neither were these other disciples you assume. This takes place the day of the Resurrection. There was no mass of disciples, they all had abandoned him during His Passion. Chapter 21 continues because it says, "Jesus revealed Himself again..." and then proceeds to list the Apostles to whom He revealed Himself before in the upper room that Easter morning. Matthew 18:18, and in much of the Gospels there is always a distinction between the crouds who follow Jesus and His disciples otherwise called the "twelve". Your interpretation seems to stretch the meaning of the term beyond it's intended meaning so as to suit your theology. That is your view, and I respect your right to it. My faith tradition believes this authority was given to the church generally. Quote: Originally Posted by The GreyPilgrim Where in the Bible does it say that the congregation has the right to expel its deacons and pastors? I simply can't find it. I misunderstood what you were asking. I thought you were asking if pastors and deacons shared in the authority to forgive and retain sin. Because they are part of the church they share in this authority. As shepherds to the flock, pastors have a particularly important role in discipline and proclaiming the decrees of God. As to your question, there are valid grounds for which church leaders should be removed. Different churches have different ways and processes to address the discipline and removal of clergy. Some congregational churches provide for the congregation to make those decisions. Other types of churches have outside authority to intervene in the affairs of a local church. Quote: Originally Posted by The GreyPilgrim And in Matthew again Jesus is speaking about the apostles, not the congregation. I think this is open to debate. The context of this particular passage suggests a more general audience. Quote: Originally Posted by The GreyPilgrim In fact throughout Paul's letters he commanded the churches to obey their pastors as if they were Paul himself speaking. Yes. We are to give honor and respect to our pastors and leaders in the faith. __________________ Oh that rugged cross My salvation Where Your love poured out over me Now my soul cries out Hallelujah Praise and honour unto Thee

#19   Jun 19, '13, 11:44 pm

IgnatianPhilo Regular Member   Join Date: August 16, 2012 Posts: 803 Religion: Orthodox in the Greek communion

Re: How do you know your sins are forgiven? When being repentent and having the priest receive your confession. Thats the only way to know for certain.

#20   Jun 20, '13, 12:07 am

The GreyPilgrim Regular Member   Join Date: January 18, 2008 Posts: 747 Religion: Catholic

Re: How do you know your sins are forgiven? Quote: Originally Posted by ltwin That is your view, and I respect your right to it. My faith tradition believes this authority was given to the church generally. Well, then where in the Bible does it demonstrate that your interpretation is correct? Where does it show that the common laity or congregation officially or collectively forgave sins and that the practice is of Apostolic origin? Quote: Originally Posted by ltwin I misunderstood what you were asking. I thought you were asking if pastors and deacons shared in the authority to forgive and retain sin. Because they are part of the church they share in this authority. As shepherds to the flock, pastors have a particularly important role in discipline and proclaiming the decrees of God. Not precisely, no. But a more interesting question is in the event of a problem with doctrine who overrules or who decides what's true: the congregation, or the pastor? Quote: Originally Posted by ltwin As to your question, there are valid grounds for which church leaders should be removed. Different churches have different ways and processes to address the discipline and removal of clergy. Some congregational churches provide for the congregation to make those decisions. Other types of churches have outside authority to intervene in the affairs of a local church. Yet, where do you find this principle in the Bible? If churches are essentially autonomous, what authority does an outside authority really have in the affair? And why don't I find any of these principles in the Bible? Quote: Originally Posted by ltwin I think this is open to debate. The context of this particular passage suggests a more general audience. That seems rather circular in reading. Quote: Originally Posted by ltwin Yes. We are to give honor and respect to our pastors and leaders in the faith. But the Bible doesn't only say "honor and respect", it says, "obey your leaders and submit to them."(Heb 13:17). __________________ DCF forums "He can no longer have God for his Father, who has not the Church for his mother." Cyprian of Carthage, On the Unity of the Church, chpt 6.

#21   Jun 20, '13, 12:13 am

ltwin Regular Member   Join Date: November 9, 2009 Posts: 2,052 Religion: Pentecostal

Re: How do you know your sins are forgiven? Quote: Originally Posted by The GreyPilgrim Well, then where in the Bible does it demonstrate that your interpretation is correct? Where does it show that the common laity or congregation officially or collectively forgave sins and that the practice is of Apostolic origin? Not precisely, no. But a more interesting question is in the event of a problem with doctrine who overrules or who decides what's true: the congregation, or the pastor? Yet, where do you find this principle in the Bible? If churches are essentially autonomous, what authority does an outside authority really have in the affair? And why don't I find any of these principles in the Bible? We seem to be veering off the original topic, and I don't want to derail the thread. I would be happy to discuss these and other subjects in private message or in another thread. __________________ Oh that rugged cross My salvation Where Your love poured out over me Now my soul cries out Hallelujah Praise and honour unto Thee

#22   Jun 20, '13, 12:38 am

ComeHome2Rome Regular Member   Join Date: November 23, 2010 Posts: 716

Re: How do you know your sins are forgiven? Quote: Originally Posted by ltwin I'd have to do some research to find what actual Pentecostals have written about this verse specifically. Thank you pm me when you find out - I don't want to miss learning what you find out

#23   Jun 20, '13, 2:27 am

Protos New Member   Join Date: August 30, 2012 Posts: 32 Religion: Christian

Re: How do you know your sins are forgiven? Quote: Originally Posted by ComeHome2Rome Greetings, I am curious about your comment and how Pentecostals relate that with 1 John 5:16-17 "If you see your brother or sister committing what is not a mortal sin, you will ask, and God will give life to such a one - to those whose sin is not mortal. There is sin that is mortal; I do not say that you should pray about that. All wrongdoing is sin, but there is a sin that is not mortal." Thanks Interestingly Haydock's catholic commentary points out this passage cannot be referrign to the catholic conceptions of venial and mortal sin... "A sin which is not unto death . . . . and life shall be given to him. It is hard to determine what S. John here calls a sin which is not unto death, and a sin which is unto death. The difference cannot be the same as betwixt sins that are called venial and mortal; for he says, that if a man pray for his brother who commits a sin that is not unto death, life shall be given to him: therefore such a one had before lost the life of grace, and been guilty of what is commonly called a mortal sin." (Haydock)

#24   Jun 20, '13, 7:04 am

SteveVH Regular Member   Join Date: March 18, 2009 Posts: 5,025 Religion: Catholic

Re: How do you know your sins are forgiven? Quote: Originally Posted by ltwin John 20:23 (and Matthew 18:18) Pentecostals understand as referring to church discipline. Christ has given his disciples on earth discernment and authority through the Holy Spirit to retain the sins of sinners in the church, to pronounce in the name and by the authority of the Lord that they are unforgiven, unpardoned, or even to be punished. Likewise, there is authority to discern when there is true repentance and in the name of the Lord to declare such are forgiven of all their sins. Any church acting properly in the Spirit may remit or retain sins. For " if two of you agree on earth about anything they ask, it will be done for them by my Father in heaven." An offending brother or sister who will not listen to the church is to be regarded as a "Gentile and a tax collector." Church discipline is not only to be honored by the church congregation but is honored in heaven because discipline is a divinely endorsed function of the church. Paul also talks about this in 1 Corinthians 5. Christ's statement presupposes that people will be confessing their sins, otherwise how can the Church either forgive or retain them? Is this practice of confession done in your faith community? If not, then what does this verse really mean to you? Judging from your statements I think something needs to be clarified. A Catholic priest is not there to pronounce that one is "unforgiven, unpardoned, or even to be punished". That is God's job. He is there to offer absolution; to be a minister of God's mercy. The only time one does not receive absolution is if it is very clear that the person confessing intends to persist in that sin. The most common example in this day and age would be one who confesses that he/she is living with another outside of the bonds of marriage but has no intention of moving out and changing that situation. In such a case the priest cannot offer absolution. Even then, however, the Church always hopes in God's mercy and does not limit God's mercy to the ordinary means of receiving this grace. The Catholic Church has never proclaimed that any particular person is in hell. It regularly proclaims that certain persons have been saved and are in heaven; those are our saints. __________________ "Let the time come when those who should oblige the servant of God, do the contrary to him, and what degree of patience and humility he has then, that is the degree he has and no more." - St. Francis of Assisi Last edited by SteveVH; Jun 20, '13 at 7:15 am.

#25   Jun 20, '13, 7:29 am

Isaiah45_9 Regular Member Book Club Member   Join Date: June 23, 2011 Posts: 1,601 Religion: Católico

Re: How do you know your sins are forgiven? Quote: Originally Posted by The GreyPilgrim But the Bible doesn't only say "honor and respect", it says, "obey your leaders and submit to them."(Heb 13:17). Let's post the whole verse shall we? Hebrews 13:17 Obey your leaders and submit to them; for they are keeping watch over your souls, as men who will have to give account. Let them do this joyfully, and not sadly, for that would be of no advantage to you. Herein lies the problem: submit. To a person? Oh no, no, no. I'll submit to a book that I can interpret in a way that I see fit. That way if I don't like the person leading my congregation I can leave and find another congregation that is more aligned to my views. Or better yet, I can lead my own congregation the way I see fit, because I know exactly how to interpret this book... sigh... __________________ Jose All that is not done for Christ's sake, even though it be good, brings neither reward in the future life nor the grace of God in this life. That is why our Lord Jesus Christ said: He who does not gather with Me scatters (Luke 11:23). St. Seraphim of Sarov

#26   Jun 20, '13, 11:31 am

ltwin Regular Member   Join Date: November 9, 2009 Posts: 2,052 Religion: Pentecostal

Re: How do you know your sins are forgiven? Quote: Originally Posted by SteveVH Christ's statement presupposes that people will be confessing their sins, otherwise how can the Church either forgive or retain them? Is this practice of confession done in your faith community? If not, then what does this verse really mean to you? One need not confess a sin for the church to know that one is living in persistent, unrepentant sin. Two people shacking up but still acting as if they've done nothing wrong, for example, is not a situation where you need a verbal confession. In such a situation, the church is obligated to tell the couple: 1) They are living in sin, 2) No matter how much they ask God, they are not forgiven until they amend their manner of life. __________________ Oh that rugged cross My salvation Where Your love poured out over me Now my soul cries out Hallelujah Praise and honour unto Thee

#27   Jun 20, '13, 11:33 am

ufamtobie Regular Member   Join Date: April 26, 2008 Posts: 830 Religion: CATHOLIC

Re: How do you know your sins are forgiven? Quote: Originally Posted by SAVINGRACE For Catholics, EO and some Anglicans we Confess, Receive Absolution and do Penance. How do the other Christians know that their sins especially the Mortal Sins are forgiven when they confess directly to God? Are you given a sign? Is it a feeling? Just curious. SavingGrace, Only we Catholics are sure to have our sins forgiven or not in the confessional by a Catholic Priest, and by no other Church. As you know, they don't have the fulness of the faith to receive absolution. that we do and this is only through the Grace of God that we do, handed on down to us by Our Lord to the Apostles and the successors of the Apostles to our local Parish Priests. EO, and some Anglicans may confess, receive absolution by their priests and do penance, however, it is only a copy of what the Catholic Church has done from the beginning with Authority from Jesus Christ to do so. I know you think I am wrong for say a "copy" and not knowing that their sins are truly forgiven, perhaps they are but does one really want to take that risk. Tell me, if you could not find a Catholic Church nearby to receive absolution from a Catholic Priest, would you enter an Anglican Church that was nearby, for your absolution? I think not, for one you're not Anglican and because you truly know, it is only a copy without the fulness, without truly knowing that your sins our forgiven you/us. We should not ask if "Are you given a sign? Is it a feeling?" What is that. We should tell them the Truth! For many don't no the truth and those that do, well, it is their free will to choose to come home or not. And I am not saying that the Protestants are not saved, because they are saved by the Catholic Church. Ufam Tobie

#28   Jun 20, '13, 11:34 am

ltwin Regular Member   Join Date: November 9, 2009 Posts: 2,052 Religion: Pentecostal

Re: How do you know your sins are forgiven? Quote: Originally Posted by Isaiah45_9 Let's post the whole verse shall we? Hebrews 13:17 Obey your leaders and submit to them; for they are keeping watch over your souls, as men who will have to give account. Let them do this joyfully, and not sadly, for that would be of no advantage to you. Herein lies the problem: submit. To a person? Oh no, no, no. I'll submit to a book that I can interpret in a way that I see fit. That way if I don't like the person leading my congregation I can leave and find another congregation that is more aligned to my views. Or better yet, I can lead my own congregation the way I see fit, because I know exactly how to interpret this book... sigh... I don't have a problem with submitting to a pastor or other spiritual leaders in any godly thing, and I've never met a Protestant pastor teach that they should be ignored. __________________ Oh that rugged cross My salvation Where Your love poured out over me Now my soul cries out Hallelujah Praise and honour unto Thee

#29   Jun 20, '13, 11:41 am

SteveVH Regular Member   Join Date: March 18, 2009 Posts: 5,025 Religion: Catholic

Re: How do you know your sins are forgiven? Quote: Originally Posted by ltwin One need not confess a sin for the church to know that one is living in persistent, unrepentant sin. Two people shacking up but still acting as if they've done nothing wrong, for example, is not a situation where you need a verbal confession. In such a situation, the church is obligated to tell the couple: 1) They are living in sin, 2) No matter how much they ask God, they are not forgiven until they amend their manner of life. And what about less obvious, personal sins of the flesh; lust, envy, greed? Unless you have ministers who are able to read people's hearts, no one knows about these sins. They must be confessed in order to be forgiven. So what do you do in that situation? But lets stick to your comment for a minute. How does your faith community absolve one from their sins? How do they forgive or retain one's sins? Admonishing someone for the way in which they are living is not the same as forgiving one's sins or retaining them. __________________ "Let the time come when those who should oblige the servant of God, do the contrary to him, and what degree of patience and humility he has then, that is the degree he has and no more." - St. Francis of Assisi

#30   Jun 20, '13, 11:44 am

EvangelCatholic Junior Member   Join Date: April 16, 2013 Posts: 717 Religion: Lutheran

Re: How do you know your sins are forgiven? Quote: Originally Posted by ufamtobie SavingGrace, Only we Catholics are sure to have our sins forgiven or not in the confessional by a Catholic Priest, and by no other Church. As you know, they don't have the fulness of the faith to receive absolution. that we do and this is only through the Grace of God that we do, handed on down to us by Our Lord to the Apostles and the successors of the Apostles to our local Parish Priests. EO, and some Anglicans may confess, receive absolution by their priests and do penance, however, it is only a copy of what the Catholic Church has done from the beginning with Authority from Jesus Christ to do so. I know you think I am wrong for say a "copy" and not knowing that their sins are truly forgiven, perhaps they are but does one really want to take that risk. Tell me, if you could not find a Catholic Church nearby to receive absolution from a Catholic Priest, would you enter an Anglican Church that was nearby, for your absolution? I think not, for one you're not Anglican and because you truly know, it is only a copy without the fulness, without truly knowing that your sins our forgiven you/us. We should not ask if "Are you given a sign? Is it a feeling?" What is that. We should tell them the Truth! For many don't no the truth and those that do, well, it is their free will to choose to come home or not. And I am not saying that the Protestants are not saved, because they are saved by the Catholic Church. Ufam Tobie With all due respect, what you write is contrary to current Catholic understanding. You set back ecumenism a 1000 years.