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**jmcrae** · #46 Yesterday, 4:10 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by cheezey

Interesting. And here I am wanting to never stop learning and was dropped. Hmmmm.

I don't get it, either.

In all my years in RCIA I have never dropped anyone.

I've had tons of people drop out when they found out that they had to go to the Marriage Tribunal to sort out their marriages, and I've had people drop out when they found out that the Church requires weekly Mass attendance, chastity according to one's state in life, etc., but I have never asked anyone to leave.

The only reason I ever would is if someone were a disruptive influence. And in my classroom, you would have to be extremely disruptive before I would throw you out. I'm used to working with teenagers, so I'm very thick-skinned.

cheezey · #47 Yesterday, 4:33 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by jmcrae

I don't get it, either.

In all my years in RCIA I have never dropped anyone.

I've had tons of people drop out when they found out that they had to go to the Marriage Tribunal to sort out their marriages, and I've had people drop out when they found out that the Church requires weekly Mass attendance, chastity according to one's state in life, etc., but I have never asked anyone to leave.

The only reason I ever would is if someone were a disruptive influence. And in my classroom, you would have to be extremely disruptive before I would throw you out. I'm used to working with teenagers, so I'm very thick-skinned.

Thank you. I am still baffled. Haven't heard from anyone in that department in almost four months, just about the same time it took to get in, after 100 inquiries. It took the Bishop's office just to finally receive a return call. And now I am out. When I move, I could start again....may that be soon....
(I was not a difficult student, just for the record.

I did once politely ask that he stop mentioning "losing me to the Protestants" but otherwise, I asked questions that he said were theologian-worthy, so it wasn't for lack of knowledge or ability...)

**jmcrae** · #48 Yesterday, 4:48 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by cheezey

Thank you. I am still baffled. Haven't heard from anyone in that department in almost four months, just about the same time it took to get in, after 100 inquiries. It took the Bishop's office just to finally receive a return call. And now I am out. When I move, I could start again....may that be soon....
(I was not a difficult student, just for the record.

I did once politely ask that he stop mentioning "losing me to the Protestants" but otherwise, I asked questions that he said were theologian-worthy, so it wasn't for lack of knowledge or ability...)

Yes, start with a clean slate again when you move. Make sure the expectations are completely clear on whether you are supposed to wait for them to phone you, or just go to the classes as they occur.

PJM · #49 Today, 9:44 am

Quote:

=jmcrae;11112316]Because in most cases all they were doing was punching their ticket to get the Sacraments - they came into the process thinking they knew it all, and never really opened themselves up to the learning.

As a former RCIA Teacher, and one who continues to Minister and explain and share our Faith to MANY who are considering the CC, I find myself disagreeing with your premisis.

Certainly the Sacraments ARE Important to catholics; but with the same certitude, they are most often not recogonized or understood by non-catholic-Christians. Therefore they have little initial dignifiance to them beyond trying to comprehend WHY they seem to SIGNIFIANT to us

My expereice with them leaving is more inclined to the following: [not necessarly in sequence of importance to them]

Unqualified teacher [s]

Liberal / Progressive [not much different than what they are running from] teachers

An inability to freely ask the questions on there minds and hearts

Either NOT fully teaching our beliefs or explaining them well

Teachers not provinding "evidence" of our beliefs so it comes off as just personal opinions

They find it "TOO Structured"

Not making a sufficient effort of having friendly and personal Fellowship durring RCIA [a HUGE ISSUE, both in RCIA and within the Catholic Community afterwards]

Typlically they come from some sort of "fellowship church" where often, beliefs are on on par or secondary to "Christian Fellowship"

Because we Catholics Do focus WORSHIP on GOD and that is the PRIMARY goal and purpose for our Mass; the lack of "Fellowship in our Worship" is a dramatically different FOCUS. Then because our catholi Fellowship varies soooo much from prish to parish; with the emphasis being on outside of Mass fellowship, that they are not INVITED SPECIFICALLY to join, they often [usually] suffer a SHOCK-lack of fellowship. They don't know about the ldies groups, Kof C, Bible study ect. HUGE error on our part.

Or as you suggested; not being open to the Holy Spirit trying and offering to work in their lives.

God Bless you,
patrick [PJM]

ltwin · un 19, '13, 11:04 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by The GreyPilgrim

How do you make this distinction when in the context Jesus wasn't speaking to His disciples as a whole but only to those twelve who were to be His Apostles and ministers of His authority?

That is not established by the context. John 20 talks about the "disciples" were shut up in a house "for fear of the Jews." He breathed on them and said, "Receive the Holy Spirit." Gave them authority to remit and to retain. And in verse 24, we are told that Thomas was not even with them when the Lord appeared. So all of the apostles were not even present.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The GreyPilgrim

Does this include the pastors or deacons?

Yes, since pastors and deacons are part of the church.

The GreyPilgrim · #17 Jun 19, '13, 11:31 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by ltwin

That is not established by the context. John 20 talks about the "disciples" were shut up in a house "for fear of the Jews." He breathed on them and said, "Receive the Holy Spirit." Gave them authority to remit and to retain. And in verse 24, we are told that Thomas was not even with them when the Lord appeared. So all of the apostles were not even present.

Neither were these other disciples you assume. This takes place the day of the Resurrection. There was no mass of disciples, they all had abandoned him during His Passion.

Chapter 21 continues because it says, "Jesus revealed Himself again..." and then proceeds to list the Apostles to whom He revealed Himself before in the upper room that Easter morning.

Matthew 18:18, and in much of the Gospels there is always a distinction between the crouds who follow Jesus and His disciples otherwise called the "twelve".

Your interpretation seems to stretch the meaning of the term beyond it's intended meaning so as to suit your theology.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ltwin

Yes, since pastors and deacons are part of the church.

Where in the Bible does it say that the congregation has the right to expel its deacons and pastors? I simply can't find it. And in Matthew again Jesus is speaking about the apostles, not the congregation. In fact throughout Paul's letters he commanded the churches to obey their pastors as if they were Paul himself speaking.

It just doesn't seem to follow from the Bible.

ltwin · #18 Jun 19, '13, 11:42 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by The GreyPilgrim

Neither were these other disciples you assume. This takes place the day of the Resurrection. There was no mass of disciples, they all had abandoned him during His Passion.

Chapter 21 continues because it says, "Jesus revealed Himself again..." and then proceeds to list the Apostles to whom He revealed Himself before in the upper room that Easter morning.

Matthew 18:18, and in much of the Gospels there is always a distinction between the crouds who follow Jesus and His disciples otherwise called the "twelve".

Your interpretation seems to stretch the meaning of the term beyond it's intended meaning so as to suit your theology.

That is your view, and I respect your right to it. My faith tradition believes this authority was given to the church generally.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The GreyPilgrim

Where in the Bible does it say that the congregation has the right to expel its deacons and pastors? I simply can't find it.

I misunderstood what you were asking. I thought you were asking if pastors and deacons shared in the authority to forgive and retain sin. Because they are part of the church they share in this authority. As shepherds to the flock, pastors have a particularly important role in discipline and proclaiming the decrees of God.

As to your question, there are valid grounds for which church leaders should be removed. Different churches have different ways and processes to address the discipline and removal of clergy. Some congregational churches provide for the congregation to make those decisions. Other types of churches have outside authority to intervene in the affairs of a local church.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The GreyPilgrim

And in Matthew again Jesus is speaking about the apostles, not the congregation.

I think this is open to debate. The context of this particular passage suggests a more general audience.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The GreyPilgrim

In fact throughout Paul's letters he commanded the churches to obey their pastors as if they were Paul himself speaking.

Yes. We are to give honor and respect to our pastors and leaders in the faith.

IgnatianPhilo · #19 Jun 19, '13, 11:44 pm

When being repentent and having the priest receive your confession. Thats the only way to know for certain.

The GreyPilgrim · #20 Jun 20, '13, 12:07 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by ltwin

That is your view, and I respect your right to it. My faith tradition believes this authority was given to the church generally.

Well, then where in the Bible does it demonstrate that your interpretation is correct? Where does it show that the common laity or congregation officially or collectively forgave sins and that the practice is of Apostolic origin?

Quote:

Originally Posted by ltwin

I misunderstood what you were asking. I thought you were asking if pastors and deacons shared in the authority to forgive and retain sin. Because they are part of the church they share in this authority. As shepherds to the flock, pastors have a particularly important role in discipline and proclaiming the decrees of God.

Not precisely, no. But a more interesting question is in the event of a problem with doctrine who overrules or who decides what's true: the congregation, or the pastor?

Quote:

Originally Posted by ltwin

As to your question, there are valid grounds for which church leaders should be removed. Different churches have different ways and processes to address the discipline and removal of clergy. Some congregational churches provide for the congregation to make those decisions. Other types of churches have outside authority to intervene in the affairs of a local church.

Yet, where do you find this principle in the Bible? If churches are essentially autonomous, what authority does an outside authority really have in the affair? And why don't I find any of these principles in the Bible?

Quote:

Originally Posted by ltwin

I think this is open to debate. The context of this particular passage suggests a more general audience.

That seems rather circular in reading.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ltwin

Yes. We are to give honor and respect to our pastors and leaders in the faith.

But the Bible doesn't only say "honor and respect", it says, "obey your leaders and submit to them."(Heb 13:17).

ltwin · #21 Jun 20, '13, 12:13 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by The GreyPilgrim

Well, then where in the Bible does it demonstrate that your interpretation is correct? Where does it show that the common laity or congregation officially or collectively forgave sins and that the practice is of Apostolic origin?

Not precisely, no. But a more interesting question is in the event of a problem with doctrine who overrules or who decides what's true: the congregation, or the pastor?

Yet, where do you find this principle in the Bible? If churches are essentially autonomous, what authority does an outside authority really have in the affair? And why don't I find any of these principles in the Bible?

We seem to be veering off the original topic, and I don't want to derail the thread. I would be happy to discuss these and other subjects in private message or in another thread.

ComeHome2Rome · #22 Jun 20, '13, 12:38 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by ltwin

I'd have to do some research to find what actual Pentecostals have written about this verse specifically.

Thank you

pm me when you find out - I don't want to miss learning what you find out

Protos · #23 Jun 20, '13, 2:27 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by ComeHome2Rome

Greetings, I am curious about your comment and how Pentecostals relate that with 1 John 5:16-17 "If you see your brother or sister committing what is not a mortal sin, you will ask, and God will give life to such a one - to those whose sin is not mortal. There is sin that is mortal; I do not say that you should pray about that. All wrongdoing is sin, but there is a sin that is not mortal." Thanks

Interestingly Haydock's catholic commentary points out this passage cannot be referrign to the catholic conceptions of venial and mortal sin...

"A sin which is not unto death . . . . and life shall be given to him. It is hard to determine what S. John here calls a sin which is not unto death, and a sin which is unto death. The difference cannot be the same as betwixt sins that are called venial and mortal; for he says, that if a man pray for his brother who commits a sin that is not unto death, life shall be given to him: therefore such a one had before lost the life of grace, and been guilty of what is commonly called a mortal sin." (Haydock)

SteveVH · #24 Jun 20, '13, 7:04 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by ltwin

John 20:23 (and Matthew 18:18) Pentecostals understand as referring to church discipline. Christ has given his disciples on earth discernment and authority through the Holy Spirit to retain the sins of sinners in the church, to pronounce in the name and by the authority of the Lord that they are unforgiven, unpardoned, or even to be punished. Likewise, there is authority to discern when there is true repentance and in the name of the Lord to declare such are forgiven of all their sins.

Any church acting properly in the Spirit may remit or retain sins. For " if two of you agree on earth about anything they ask, it will be done for them by my Father in heaven." An offending brother or sister who will not listen to the church is to be regarded as a "Gentile and a tax collector." Church discipline is not only to be honored by the church congregation but is honored in heaven because discipline is a divinely endorsed function of the church.

Paul also talks about this in 1 Corinthians 5.

Christ's statement presupposes that people will be confessing their sins, otherwise how can the Church either forgive or retain them? Is this practice of confession done in your faith community? If not, then what does this verse really mean to you?

Judging from your statements I think something needs to be clarified. A Catholic priest is not there to pronounce that one is "unforgiven, unpardoned, or even to be punished". That is God's job. He is there to offer absolution; to be a minister of God's mercy. The only time one does not receive absolution is if it is very clear that the person confessing intends to persist in that sin. The most common example in this day and age would be one who confesses that he/she is living with another outside of the bonds of marriage but has no intention of moving out and changing that situation. In such a case the priest cannot offer absolution.

Even then, however, the Church always hopes in God's mercy and does not limit God's mercy to the ordinary means of receiving this grace. The Catholic Church has never proclaimed that any particular person is in hell. It regularly proclaims that certain persons have been saved and are in heaven; those are our saints.

Isaiah45_9 · #25 Jun 20, '13, 7:29 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by The GreyPilgrim

But the Bible doesn't only say "honor and respect", it says, "obey your leaders and submit to them."(Heb 13:17).

Let's post the whole verse shall we?

Hebrews 13:17 Obey your leaders and submit to them; for they are keeping watch over your souls, as men who will have to give account. Let them do this joyfully, and not sadly, for that would be of no advantage to you.

Herein lies the problem: submit. To a person? Oh no, no, no. I'll submit to a book that I can interpret in a way that I see fit. That way if I don't like the person leading my congregation I can leave and find another congregation that is more aligned to my views. Or better yet, I can lead my own congregation the way I see fit, because I know exactly how to interpret this book... sigh...

ltwin · #26 Jun 20, '13, 11:31 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by SteveVH

Christ's statement presupposes that people will be confessing their sins, otherwise how can the Church either forgive or retain them? Is this practice of confession done in your faith community? If not, then what does this verse really mean to you?

One need not confess a sin for the church to know that one is living in persistent, unrepentant sin. Two people shacking up but still acting as if they've done nothing wrong, for example, is not a situation where you need a verbal confession. In such a situation, the church is obligated to tell the couple:

1) They are living in sin,
2) No matter how much they ask God, they are not forgiven until they amend their manner of life.

ufamtobie · #27 Jun 20, '13, 11:33 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by SAVINGRACE

For Catholics, EO and some Anglicans we Confess, Receive Absolution and do Penance.

How do the other Christians know that their sins especially the Mortal Sins are forgiven when they confess directly to God?

Are you given a sign? Is it a feeling?

Just curious.

SavingGrace,

Only we Catholics are sure to have our sins forgiven or not in the confessional by a Catholic Priest, and by no other Church. As you know, they don't have the fulness of the faith to receive absolution. that we do and this is only through the Grace of God that we do, handed on down to us by Our Lord to the Apostles and the successors of the Apostles to our local Parish Priests.

EO, and some Anglicans may confess, receive absolution by their priests and do penance, however, it is only a copy of what the Catholic Church has done from the beginning with Authority from Jesus Christ to do so.

I know you think I am wrong for say a "copy" and not knowing that their sins are truly forgiven, perhaps they are but does one really want to take that risk.

Tell me, if you could not find a Catholic Church nearby to receive absolution from a Catholic Priest, would you enter an Anglican Church that was nearby, for your absolution? I think not, for one you're not Anglican and because you truly know, it is only a copy without the fulness, without truly knowing that your sins our forgiven you/us.

We should not ask if "Are you given a sign? Is it a feeling?" What is that. We should tell them the Truth! For many don't no the truth and those that do, well, it is their free will to choose to come home or not.

And I am not saying that the Protestants are not saved, because they are saved by the Catholic Church.

Ufam Tobie

ltwin · #28 Jun 20, '13, 11:34 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Isaiah45_9

Let's post the whole verse shall we?

Hebrews 13:17 Obey your leaders and submit to them; for they are keeping watch over your souls, as men who will have to give account. Let them do this joyfully, and not sadly, for that would be of no advantage to you.

Herein lies the problem: submit. To a person? Oh no, no, no. I'll submit to a book that I can interpret in a way that I see fit. That way if I don't like the person leading my congregation I can leave and find another congregation that is more aligned to my views. Or better yet, I can lead my own congregation the way I see fit, because I know exactly how to interpret this book... sigh...

I don't have a problem with submitting to a pastor or other spiritual leaders in any godly thing, and I've never met a Protestant pastor teach that they should be ignored.

SteveVH · #29 Jun 20, '13, 11:41 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by ltwin

One need not confess a sin for the church to know that one is living in persistent, unrepentant sin. Two people shacking up but still acting as if they've done nothing wrong, for example, is not a situation where you need a verbal confession. In such a situation, the church is obligated to tell the couple:

1) They are living in sin,
2) No matter how much they ask God, they are not forgiven until they amend their manner of life.

And what about less obvious, personal sins of the flesh; lust, envy, greed? Unless you have ministers who are able to read people's hearts, no one knows about these sins. They must be confessed in order to be forgiven. So what do you do in that situation?

But lets stick to your comment for a minute. How does your faith community absolve one from their sins? How do they forgive or retain one's sins? Admonishing someone for the way in which they are living is not the same as forgiving one's sins or retaining them.

EvangelCatholic · #30 Jun 20, '13, 11:44 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by ufamtobie

SavingGrace,

Only we Catholics are sure to have our sins forgiven or not in the confessional by a Catholic Priest, and by no other Church. As you know, they don't have the fulness of the faith to receive absolution. that we do and this is only through the Grace of God that we do, handed on down to us by Our Lord to the Apostles and the successors of the Apostles to our local Parish Priests.

EO, and some Anglicans may confess, receive absolution by their priests and do penance, however, it is only a copy of what the Catholic Church has done from the beginning with Authority from Jesus Christ to do so.

I know you think I am wrong for say a "copy" and not knowing that their sins are truly forgiven, perhaps they are but does one really want to take that risk.

Tell me, if you could not find a Catholic Church nearby to receive absolution from a Catholic Priest, would you enter an Anglican Church that was nearby, for your absolution? I think not, for one you're not Anglican and because you truly know, it is only a copy without the fulness, without truly knowing that your sins our forgiven you/us.

We should not ask if "Are you given a sign? Is it a feeling?" What is that. We should tell them the Truth! For many don't no the truth and those that do, well, it is their free will to choose to come home or not.

And I am not saying that the Protestants are not saved, because they are saved by the Catholic Church.

Ufam Tobie

With all due respect, what you write is contrary to current Catholic understanding. You set back ecumenism a 1000 years.

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